Log of the #sugar IRC Channel

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Date : 03-04-2015

[00:14:07] [connected at Fri Apr 3 00:14:07 2015]
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[00:15:47] <Sugar-77d6> hola
[00:17:36] <meeting> By that
[00:18:52] <Sugar-77d6> adios
[00:23:37] <meeting> * Sugar-77d6-es has joined
[00:25:02] <Sugar-77d6> hola
[00:35:48] <meeting> * Sugar-77d6-es has joined
[00:43:58] <meeting> * Sugar-77d6-es has joined
[00:44:09] <Sugar-77d6> hola
[00:49:33] <meeting> * Sugar-77d6-es has joined
[00:50:41] <meeting> * Sugar-77d6 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[00:53:11] <meeting> * Sugar-77d6-es has joined
[00:54:54] <Sugar-77d6> que aburido
[02:32:39] Seun_Droid is now known as SeunDroid_AFK
[09:26:07] psd__ is now known as psd
[11:31:59] <jo0nas> not certain, but seems sugar-fatattr.c in sugar-toolkit-gtk3 fails on Hurd or KFreeBSD - where should I report that?
[12:43:41] SeunDroid_AFK is now known as Ricky_Bobby
[13:21:28] <icarito> jo0nas, it is unlikely somebody will care much about those platforms, but the right place probably is bugs.sugarlabs.org
[13:22:32] <icarito> bernie, I got one volunteer for moderating IAEP, one for sugar-devel
[13:22:42] <jo0nas> I am quite aware that some may even laugh at my reporting bugs about Hurd
[13:22:45] <icarito> bernie, should I give them full admin privileges over the list or only moderators?
[13:23:09] <icarito> jo0nas, it is a bit funny, you have to admit ;-)
[13:23:52] <icarito> jo0nas, I have used debian/kfreebsd tho
[13:24:01] <jo0nas> on the contrary I find it far more realistic for Sugar to each a workable state on Hurd than GNOME
[13:24:03] <icarito> all the power to it
[13:24:13] <icarito> jo0nas, right
[13:24:40] <icarito> jo0nas, pity rms doesn't like sugar's design
[13:24:45] <icarito> i'd love a gnu sugar ;-)
[13:25:00] <jo0nas> oh well - I frankly dont care about RMS, I care about code
[13:25:18] <icarito> jo0nas, ok sorry for the chit chat
[13:25:25] <icarito> i'm not a C coder myself really
[13:25:34] <jo0nas> neither am I
[13:25:40] <jo0nas> I am not even a Python coder :-)
[13:26:00] <jo0nas> I do Perl, shell and make
[13:26:02] <icarito> maybe alsroot can help, he's good with C
[13:26:31] <icarito> jo0nas, I love python myself, and quite happy with html/css/javascript
[13:26:34] <jo0nas> ...and I package a slew of stuff, including Python, C, C++ and Haskell
[13:26:50] <icarito> jo0nas, used to do perl and php in a prior existence
[13:26:55] <icarito> :)
[13:27:06] <jo0nas> I do some web design using Sass/Compass - but am no good with Javascript
[13:27:16] <icarito> I stay away from those as a matter of sanity now :-)
[13:27:55] <icarito> jo0nas, so I see you've been going forward with toolkit gtk3?
[13:28:00] <icarito> :-D
[13:28:03] <jo0nas> I do not like php at all - as sysadmin I stay far away from it, to the extend that I have packaged a perl-based webmail app just to get rid of php on the servers that I maintain!
[13:28:34] <icarito> I have seen elegant PHP code. Can you imagine? :-)
[13:28:35] <jo0nas> farther than you've seen yet: I have packaged 0.104 now!
[13:28:43] <icarito> jo0nas, wow!
[13:29:02] <icarito> i'm very happy!
[13:29:23] <jo0nas> will upload 0.104 to experimental in a moment - and then backport it to Sid and Jessie
[13:29:25] <icarito> thanks for your effort jo0nas
[13:29:40] <jo0nas> no thanks, just a plane ticket ;-)
[13:29:48] * jo0nas just kidding!
[13:29:56] <icarito> jo0nas, what is debian's or your approach to backports or PPAs or such things?
[13:30:20] <jo0nas> when I say backport I mean only that - no official structure
[13:30:42] <icarito> jo0nas, yes I understand, just wondering where you were planing to put those packages
[13:30:55] <jo0nas> debian.jones.dk
[13:30:58] <icarito> I am actually logged to jita which is our buildserver, trying to fix some SSL issues
[13:31:08] <icarito> we have a debian chroot there, I think jessie
[13:31:26] <jo0nas> I simply build on my laptop
[13:31:29] <icarito> actually we have 2 build chroots there, one debian 7 and one jessie
[13:31:53] <jo0nas> good for you (no interest for me - I prefer running things on my own)
[13:32:39] <icarito> jo0nas, right, so the workflow for debian is usually developers build themselves and upload binaries?
[13:33:01] <jo0nas> yes, that is current state of affairs
[13:33:20] <jo0nas> ...and then build daemons recompile for all other archs than the one uploaded for
[13:33:41] <jo0nas> we are slowly loving towards auto-build for all archs
[13:34:05] <icarito> jo0nas, it worked well for us in the past especially since we had really bad connections
[13:34:16] <jo0nas> it is possible now (since recently) to upload only sources in some circumstances - but I don't remember which
[13:34:20] <icarito> so it really relieved our connections to be able to build the entire OS image from the serverss
[13:34:30] <icarito> also, I had an atom laptop ;-p
[13:34:45] <jo0nas> my laptop is similar to atom
[13:34:59] <jo0nas> AMD C-60 APU
[13:35:22] <jo0nas> when bandwidth is low, use approx!
[13:35:42] <icarito> sounds slow but I have no idea - i'm quite happy with a haswell chromebook
[13:35:50] <icarito> it flies like the wind and uses no blobs
[13:35:55] <icarito> cheap too
[13:36:10] <icarito> crappy proprietary firmware but that can be fixed
[13:36:23] <jo0nas> I bet it is no cheaper than this one
[13:36:36] <icarito> got it for 199 US new
[13:36:42] <icarito> cheaper than the XO actually
[13:36:45] <icarito> :-D
[13:37:14] <icarito> heh
[13:37:26] <jo0nas> this is similar to some chromebooks - it is an Acer One 725
[13:37:57] <icarito> 10" screen? i feel your pain
[13:38:17] <jo0nas> I prefer to avoid Intel due to the revelations about NSA interfereence with Intel-based random number generator
[13:38:37] <jo0nas> I enjoy travelling light!
[13:38:42] <icarito> yes me too
[13:38:47] <icarito> I have 11" myself
[13:38:54] <icarito> the 1" does make a difference
[13:39:05] <icarito> i think it's 11.9" tho
[13:39:08] <icarito> not sure
[13:39:14] <jo0nas> weight?
[13:39:17] <icarito> It's Acer too, C720
[13:39:44] <icarito> pretty light, not sure less than 1k for sure
[13:40:20] <icarito> jo0nas, I was really surprised at the difference in speed from atom to haswell
[13:40:30] <icarito> it's faster than laura's core 2 duo
[13:40:48] <icarito> and 8+ battery life
[13:40:54] <icarito> maybe 7+ after a year now
[13:41:20] psd__ is now known as psd
[13:41:26] <icarito> linux is supposed to compensate for the RNG issue
[13:43:42] <icarito> jo0nas, i'm in the debian-olpc groun in alioth
[13:43:46] <icarito> but that one is dead
[13:43:59] <jo0nas> the group is dead?
[13:44:16] <icarito> jo0nas, I mean there is no activity and I unsubscribed from the list because I was getting spam
[13:44:30] <icarito> tried to contact list-owner but got no response
[13:45:00] <icarito> if we reuse that group (which would be great because there are a bunch of people), we might rename it to debian-sugar perhaps
[13:45:13] <jo0nas> pkg-sugar
[13:45:21] <icarito> except it was supposed to be about debian-on-olpc instead of sugar-on-debian
[13:45:23] <icarito> ok
[13:45:42] <icarito> sounds good
[13:45:56] <jo0nas> or simply sugar
[13:47:07] <jo0nas> pkg-* is for packaging teams - arguably a team doing both Debian packaging and derived work (e.g. deployment-specific backporting of glibc to support bleeding edge locales) is more than packaging
[13:48:07] <icarito> jo0nas, perhaps work beyond packaging might occur in debian-jr or debian-edu?
[13:48:18] <icarito> jo0nas, or even debian-design ;-)
[13:48:39] <icarito> jo0nas, it is difficult we try not to fragment conversation
[13:48:41] <jo0nas> I also thought of sticking with olpc team due to the subscribers there - but on the other hand only about 3 people have ever been active in that group!
[13:48:48] <icarito> we like to talk about sugar in #sugar, for instance ;-)
[13:49:16] <icarito> jo0nas, some of them used to be active in the lists and might care at least
[13:49:21] <jo0nas> debian-edu is for a specific blending style of Debian - which I disagree with
[13:49:28] <jo0nas> a monolithic style
[13:49:54] <jo0nas> debian-jr is... not really active, last I checked - but might have changed
[13:50:17] <jo0nas> ...even if it has changed, I suspect it is too a specific style and focus
[13:50:46] <jo0nas> I don't know - maybe what I really try to say is that I prefer fragmentation :-/
[13:51:44] <jo0nas> I sticked with sugarlabs for quite some time, but noone seemed to care about Debian there - which is fine
[13:52:19] <jo0nas> Sugarlabs is about developing and using Sugar in its "native habitat" which is Fedora
[13:52:42] <icarito> jo0nas, I disagree
[13:52:49] <icarito> perhaps sugarlabs is about developing sugar only
[13:52:50] <jo0nas> tell me more
[13:53:02] <icarito> the fedora push is from the olpc deployer
[13:53:06] <jo0nas> I know
[13:53:08] <icarito> which is our only deployer really so far
[13:53:11] <jo0nas> and it worked :-)
[13:53:16] <icarito> yes
[13:53:22] <icarito> but not really for sugar labs
[13:53:28] <icarito> as you can see
[13:53:36] <icarito> there are far less people here than there used to be
[13:53:49] <icarito> so sugar needs to grow beyond OLPC
[13:53:57] <icarito> with all the respect to the founders
[13:53:59] <icarito> ;-)
[13:54:08] <jo0nas> when I followed Sugarlabs there was lots of noise about Sugar on a stick
[13:54:22] <icarito> jo0nas, noise indeed
[13:54:50] <icarito> it's just not stable/usable from USB
[13:55:04] <icarito> from my POV
[13:55:06] <jo0nas> lots of activity by folks not caring about underlying OS - just wanting to throw whatever OS below and play with Sugar
[13:55:12] <icarito> the media is too unreliable
[13:55:24] <jo0nas> the medium us not my point
[13:55:24] <icarito> jo0nas, that is still the case
[13:55:32] <jo0nas> is*
[13:55:42] <icarito> jo0nas, sugar labs still has not learned that we are not a separate platform
[13:55:56] <icarito> there is still the "sugarizing" mentality
[13:56:03] <icarito> i disagree with it strongly
[13:56:13] <icarito> we are a GNU desktop environment
[13:56:22] <icarito> with a fancy metaphor
[13:56:39] <icarito> so my goal is to make Sugar be a good GNU desktop player
[13:56:49] <jo0nas> so you disagree with fragmentation and you disagree with the way things are discussed at Sugarlabs - I am confused: what do you agree with?
[13:56:51] <icarito> for instance, make it comply with freedesktop.org standards
[13:57:22] <icarito> two things are hardly all things
[13:57:32] <icarito> i'm quite an agreeable guy really
[13:57:48] <jo0nas> I see Sugar as a DE - and have more interest in discussing *integration* of said DE with the specific OS Debian, than with the inner design challenges of the DE itself
[13:57:50] <icarito> it's easier to describe shapes by describing limits I guess
[13:58:05] <icarito> jo0nas, great
[13:58:15] <icarito> jo0nas, for instance, sugar has no way to launch applications
[13:58:19] <icarito> except from the terminal
[13:58:20] <jo0nas> which is why I find it sensible to fragment
[13:58:24] <icarito> or unless they've been "sugarized"
[13:58:39] <jo0nas> I know
[13:58:47] <icarito> jo0nas, this is my #1 gripe with sugar right now
[13:58:48] <soakbot> Ticket 1: Add support to Browse for distro-customised start page. http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1
[13:58:50] <jo0nas> I consider that an inner design challenge for Sugar :-)
[13:58:53] <icarito> that we can't used regular linux apps
[13:59:41] <icarito> soakbot, if distros replace /usr/lib/somepath/ (have to look it up), browse displays that
[14:00:15] <icarito> jo0nas, exactly and it's my #1 target for 0.106
[14:00:16] <soakbot> Ticket 1: Add support to Browse for distro-customised start page. http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1
[14:00:45] <icarito> arghh talked to a bot
[14:00:49] <jo0nas> :-)
[14:01:04] <jo0nas> it is even labelled as such :P
[14:01:08] <icarito> jo0nas, yes
[14:01:20] <icarito> jo0nas, so I've thought to add sugar the ability to parse .desktop files
[14:01:39] <jo0nas> please make it optional!
[14:02:03] <icarito> jo0nas, how would you have sugar launch applications instead?
[14:02:39] <jo0nas> I believe Sugar nowadays supports touchscreens
[14:02:45] <icarito> the idea is to either parse ~/Desktop/*.desktop or something like ~/.sugar/Applications or something
[14:03:02] <jo0nas> it is not user-friendly in a UI that suppports touchscreens to easily lauch apps that require right-clicking to be used
[14:03:15] <jo0nas> launch*
[14:03:39] <icarito> jo0nas, if it is installed in the first place, it is not the place of the DE to limit the user's ability to launch stuff
[14:03:40] <icarito> i think
[14:03:54] <jo0nas> where to hide it, then?
[14:04:06] <icarito> jo0nas, sugar by default hides everything but the favourites
[14:04:22] <icarito> so you just star the ones you want and it shows up in home view
[14:04:45] <icarito> the issue is how to select which apps to have in home view
[14:04:51] <jo0nas> fine to make it easer than commandline, but please treat non-Sugarized applications as secondary citizens in the Sugar environment!!
[14:05:13] <icarito> jo0nas, agreed
[14:05:25] <jo0nas> KDE treats non-KDE applications as secondary in its menus (last I checked - I am not a KDE user)
[14:05:36] <jo0nas> I imagine GNOME does similar
[14:06:12] <jo0nas> ...or perhaps it that prioritizing is Debian-specific?
[14:06:12] <icarito> i haven't noticed gnome discriminating but I'm not a user either
[14:06:30] <jo0nas> Debian menu system might play a role
[14:08:01] <icarito> jo0nas, i'd like it there to be a sugar labs level discussion about how to make sugar a better gnu environment
[14:08:16] <jo0nas> please do not assume that all applications installed are applications wanted by the user: The OS may be a multi-user system!
[14:09:07] <icarito> jo0nas, currently sugar has two lists favourites (spiral view) and full list view
[14:10:18] <jo0nas> Sugar took the bold move to make radical new UI (unlike e.g. XFCE) - I actually like how it is a UI for its own optimized applications, rather than only a launcher for a heterogenous pile of applications
[14:11:08] <jo0nas> I like your interest in improving the ability to reach non-optimized applications - but please preserve a distinction between 1st class and 2nd class applications!
[14:12:01] <icarito> jo0nas, i think they are pretty distinct already
[14:12:30] <icarito> jo0nas, for instance, I taught a class last year, on making videogames, with children 8-12
[14:12:32] <jo0nas> already? Aren't you talking about change?
[14:12:52] <icarito> jo0nas, i missed some programs that weren't available in sugar
[14:13:02] <icarito> it was a hassle to teach them to launch apps from terminal
[14:13:05] <icarito> you can imagine
[14:13:12] <jo0nas> I do not disagree
[14:13:15] <icarito> and sugarizing was too much effort for a class
[14:13:19] <jo0nas> I like your interest in improving the ability to reach non-optimized applications - but please preserve a distinction between 1st class and 2nd class applications!
[14:13:43] <icarito> jo0nas, toolbars are already different, icons are already different, what other distinction do you propose?
[14:13:43] <jo0nas> where do I disagree with you in above statement?!?
[14:14:21] <icarito> no disagreement, I just want to understand what you mean with preserving distinction
[14:14:28] <jo0nas> I have no idea what you have in mind, so cannot tell you more specifically how I might agree or disagree with the change
[14:14:49] <icarito> jo0nas, for the most part, my proposed changes are invisble
[14:14:56] <icarito> except for people who might use non-sugar apps
[14:15:12] <icarito> who might appreicate a shortcut to launch them that's all
[14:15:12] <jo0nas> that's a clear distinction, then :)
[14:15:29] <icarito> i try to be pretty minimalistic as I know my coding limits
[14:15:39] <icarito> i'm more of a glue programmer
[14:15:40] <icarito> :-)
[14:18:37] <icarito> jo0nas, it used to be the case non sugar apps did not have an icon in sugar
[14:20:33] <icarito> i added proper icons from wm hints
[14:25:03] * icarito looked in experimental repo, looking for jo0nas 's new debian packages ;-)
[14:25:41] * jo0nas has been too busy chatting here
[14:27:01] <icarito> jo0nas, sorry
[14:27:08] <jo0nas> don't be!
[14:28:25] <icarito> jo0nas, right
[14:34:55] Ricky_Bobby is now known as SeunDroid
[14:37:29] <jo0nas> compiling package again - lintian spotted a use of /usr/bin/env which is wrong to do in Debian
[14:42:31] <icarito> i actually thought that was a best practice
[14:42:45] <icarito> ah it is /bin/env what I use
[14:42:52] <icarito> no
[14:42:54] <icarito> it isnt
[14:43:06] <icarito> /usr/bin/env
[14:44:45] <meeting> * Sugar-77d6-es has joined
[14:44:58] <Sugar-77d6> hola
[14:45:38] <jo0nas> https://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/python-policy/ch-programs.html#s-version_indep_progs
[14:46:56] <Sugar-77d6> hola joOnas
[14:47:57] <jo0nas> icarito: I got this lintian error: https://lintian.debian.org/tags/python-script-but-no-python-dep.html
[14:48:04] <jo0nas> hi Sugar-77d6
[14:48:12] <Sugar-77d6> que paso?
[14:49:38] <jo0nas> sorry - I do not speak spanish (only danish, english, some german, and a tiny bit of russian)
[14:49:47] <Sugar-77d6> guten tag
[14:50:34] <icarito> jo0nas, I guess it's missing the python dependency then
[14:50:38] <icarito> we're still using python2
[14:51:06] <jo0nas> nope
[14:51:16] <jo0nas> I suspect it might be the space
[14:51:48] <jo0nas> script uses "#! /usr/bin/env python" - i.e. with a space after the bang
[14:52:09] <Sugar-77d6> python < 3 o python >3 ?
[14:52:35] <jo0nas> possibly it is a bug in lintian - I am too lazy to bother, just applied a boilerplate routine I had put together for another package already
[14:53:42] <icarito> that does look like a bug to me
[14:55:46] <jo0nas> since it is "strongly discouraged" in Debian Python Policy, I do not care much
[14:57:39] <quidam> ~
[15:03:51] <jo0nas> icarito: you use Jessie, right?
[15:08:45] <icarito> jo0nas, yes
[15:08:55] <jo0nas> amd64 or i386?
[15:09:02] <icarito> i386
[15:09:10] * icarito only has 2g ram
[15:09:11] <icarito> :-)
[15:09:21] <jo0nas> then wait a bit more...
[15:14:42] <icarito> thanks for all your efforts
[15:16:16] <jo0nas> icarito: deb http://debian.jones.dk/ jessie sugar_
[15:17:02] <jo0nas> add that to your /etc/apt/sources.list - or echo it to e.g. /etc/apt/sources.lists.d/sugar.list
[15:17:53] <jo0nas> I have not tested it myself - please tell me if it is any good :-)
[15:18:15] <jo0nas> it seems from the code that it should be backwards compatible with 0.98
[15:20:06] <icarito> jo0nas, ok I updated from the repos, looking for packages to install
[15:21:01] <jo0nas> if you have sucrose-0.98 installed already, you should simply upgrade your system
[15:21:01] * icarito installing python-sugar3
[15:21:07] <icarito> ah
[15:21:52] <jo0nas> the packages I provide in that backport is newer than the official packages for that suite (but slightly older than the official one in experimental)
[15:22:22] <jo0nas> so logic is it should automatically "do the right thing"
[15:22:31] <icarito> jo0nas, new sugar does not use sugar-emulator but sugar-runner
[15:22:59] <jo0nas> oh
[15:23:40] <jo0nas> that sounds like you'll then have to wait until I get sugar packaged too
[15:24:21] <jo0nas> ...or test a full login session rather than just an emulation
[15:25:20] <icarito> i'll try that last option
[15:39:04] <icarito> looks like a missing depends on some python gstreamer thing
[15:39:38] <icarito> appears non fatal tho
[15:41:41] <icarito> i was missing gir1.2-gstreamer-0.10
[15:43:19] <icarito> after installing said gir, I got this traceback http://pastie.org/10072345
[15:44:26] <icarito> nevermind that last one, was missing gir1.2-gstreamer-1.0
[15:44:57] <icarito> now it's missing other gir files from: ImportError: cannot import name Wnck
[15:46:02] <icarito> ok now i got past that one by installing gir1.2-wnck-3.0
[15:46:08] <icarito> but now i got another error
[15:46:15] <icarito> (sugar-session:32140): GLib-GIO-ERROR **: Settings schema 'org.sugarlabs.font' is not installed
[15:55:48] <icarito> i'll be cooking lunch
[15:55:52] <icarito> :-)
[17:00:08] <jo0nas> someone really should write a Maliit keyboard which does *not* use Qt framework! Sugar 0.98 and newer effectively loads both GTK+ 3.0 and Qt on touchscreen interfaces!
[19:37:39] <GitHub29> [sugar-toolkit-gtk3] godiard opened pull request #201: Don't break activity startup if activity info have 'class' instead of 'e... (master...activity_compat) http://git.io/veOPX
[20:28:32] <Sugar-77d6> #sugar
[20:29:59] <Sugar-77d6> Topic Memories Pizza
[20:30:12] <Sugar-77d6> TOPIC Memories Pizza
[20:33:54] <Sugar-77d6> whois bernie
[21:53:15] <meeting> *hi *there / hello
[21:54:11] <meeting> hello meeting
[21:54:26] <meeting> Of where are?
[21:55:14] <meeting> I of *Paysandú - Uruguay - *Sudamerica - I *am Latin
[21:55:17] <meeting> *hi
[21:55:20] <meeting> *hello
[21:55:48] <meeting> *somebody *in *home?
[21:56:01] <meeting> *anybody *in *home?
[21:56:04] <meeting> *LOL
[21:56:39] <LALO-9c63> tic tac
[21:56:56] <LALO-9c63> I'm just waiting
[21:57:57] <LALO-9c63> oh my god. Youuu, meeting is a bot :-(
[21:58:18] <LALO-9c63> I will cry, OMG
[02:55:39] [disconnected at Sat Apr 4 02:55:39 2015]